Jimbo.Info

Jimbo, I had not thought about the soldiers killed vs those killed on 9/11 before, and I think that is a significant point. (By the time we get out, I am afraid), Bush will have killed more Americans in his pointless war against a petty dictator who threatened his daddy than Osama did on 9/11. Who is more dangerous?

SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING: Pulling out on a well-planned schedule is not an effective form of birth control and does not provide protection from sexually transmitted diseases.

(I know, I know, it's a various serious topic, but come on, that was a softball if I ever saw one . . . or my mind just perpetually resides in the gutter.)

I found the response from the White House to be ridiculous. The whole "he is a private citizen with freedom of expression" crap.
Pat Robertson is not a private citizen, he is a Public person with some (sad to say) power over the hundreds of thousands of people who watch his show or are part of the Christian Coalition and think of him as some sort of leader/man of god. He has power of influence over his "peers".

I personally think that White House should make Robertson an example. His words from that telecast are not any different than is an Islamic Cleric (Or any Cleric) going on air suggesting that some one assasinate George Bush or anyother leader.

I sincerely apologize for my unsupported, incendiary comments re: softballs. I herewith offer a complete and utter retraction. The imputation was totally without basis in fact, and was in no way fair comment, and was motivated purely by malice, and I deeply regret any distress that my comments may have caused you, or your family, and I hereby undertake not to repeat any such libel at any time in the future.

How can Chavez be promoting both extremist Muslimism and Communism? Don't those two have some radically different (and contradictory!) precepts?

He is a private citizen though, Dax. I think what he said was irresponsible, but I'd rather him have the right to say that than have the White House go after him.

No he is not a private citizen, and I think Jimbo is correct to draw parallels between what an Islamic cleric would say and a Christian preacher. Neither is usually in a position of direct political power (Iran and Saudi excepted) but wield immense influence and usually have the ear of those in power, if not quasi-power themselves. He has also run for President and has been a power broker, if not an active cog in the machinery of public policy.

As someone who has actually lived in a theocracy, an Islamic one at that, I knew the second he said it, I'd heard the exact same thing before.

(Gosh, i hope this contrary comment won't be tagged as incendiary or self-promotion, too... I tend to think comments here are a little un-welcomed, if they don't tow the blog-line that is. I hope i'm wrong.)

I don't think many Americans connect war and killing with patriotism. I could be wrong. But, if you ask most Americans, i think they would say war is an infrequent necessity, not a some bizarro patriotic opportunity to show the world America's mettle. From your oft charactization, readers might think Americans supporting this war were the Viking Hordes looking to settle down in New Castle with kids and pigs. ("MEATS! MEATS! MEATS! We kill for the tasty meats!") American foreign policy is, well, a bit more nuanced than either the AmericaniViking's or some war-centric-patriotism eminating from the newsmedia elusive Cabal-of-Cheney.

In reality:
America has made a strategic decision, on par with the Marshall Plan, to
- 1) create an ideological example in the MidEast (Palestine, Iraq),
- 2) confront anti-democratic forces in the region (e.g., the alQaeda Movement, Iran's Theocratic Oligarchy) and
- 3) incrementally withdraw political support for non-democratic, repressive regimes (e.g., House of Saud, Mubarak's Military Syndicate, Pakistan's ISI). For sure, this is a multi-decade long effort.

The same mentality, the same *patriotism* that sparked the Marshall Plan, or our determined efforts to democratize Japan (talk about un-democratic traditions...?) is the same mentality that supports the war in Iraq. Those who grew up with JiffyPop, Snuffleupagus, and easy nights in the glow of the TV might be ill-equipped for such global altruism, but (like it or not) that is what it means to be a patriotic American, past, present, and future.

rob@egoz.org

America has made a strategic decision, on par with the Marshall Plan, to
>>- 1) create an ideological example in the MidEast (Palestine, Iraq),
- 2) confront anti-democratic forces in the region (e.g., the alQaeda Movement, Iran's Theocratic Oligarchy) and
- 3) incrementally withdraw political support for non-democratic, repressive regimes (e.g., House of Saud, Mubarak's Military Syndicate, Pakistan's ISI). For sure, this is a multi-decade long effort.

with all due respect, and coming from someone with a background in International Relations as opposed to your snide "Jiffy-Pop" characterizations of those who disagree with you, you are full of neo-con crap.

For starters, the Marshall Plan did not involve sending the country to an unnecessary war based upon lies and deceit, with made-up "facts" and very little planning for the aftermath. The Marshall Plan was also not out-sourced as a get-rich scheme to the then Administration's corporate backers, nore was it administered with an ideological litmus test where party loyalty counted more than competence and experience the way Arthur Bremmer's CPA was administered. Recognize the Iraqi disaster for what it is - little more than an exercise in oil-grabbing imperialism.

If we were really intent on making an ideological example of Iraq, we wouldn't be imposing an artificial deadline on a Constitutional process that must be seen as legitimate by the people in order to function. And the probable result of a Iranian-dominated theorcratic state is hardly the ideological result that we are spending billions and billions of dollars in order to supposedly achieve. As for the Palestinians, if we are really looking to make an ideological example of them (in what way, btw?) it's funny how we aren't exactly showering them with interest and money. I guess if it doesn't include a way for Haliburton to make it's profits it just isn't going to get our real attention. Btw - what happened to Osama bin Laden and "Dead or alive"? Funny how the rationale for throwing our weight around in the Middle East keeps changing.
Also interesting how in our confrontation of the "anti-democratic forces" in the Middle East, Iraq isn't mentioned - nor are the "weapons of mass destruction" and the "imminent" danger of Saddam's mushroom clouds and Niger-sourced uranium that was dangled in front of the American people. Whoops. I guess it's inconvenient to discuss that stuff. What about Osama bin Laden, anyway?
And have we really withdrawn support from the Saudis? Last I saw Bush was holding hands and kissing the Prince. Can't imagine what he would have been doing if he hadn't withdrawn support. And what exactly has he done with Pakistan? Given total support and backing to undemocratic dictator. Hey, speaking of which, what about Uzbekistan? And what about Osama bin Laden?

I remember in the run-up to the Iraqi invasion discussing with my family the trumped up WMD claims made by Bush and how he basically, rather than show that Saddam actually had WMDs, really tried to get Saddam to prove a negative and how Bush and co totally ignored the fact that UN weapons inspectors were back in the country and completely failed to find anything and that Bush seemed determined to go to war regardless. My family's response was "he's the President - he wouldn't lie to us. He wouldn't go to war for the wrong reasons." That's the sort of "Patriotism" that Bush and co are relying upon - unquestioned obedience regardless of whether truth or lies is put forward. And unfortunately for America, the Bush people are depending on lies.

I don't know if you caught this part, but according to some of the political blogs I read, Chavez made some comment that he might start offering free gasoline to the poor in America... I didn't even know that much about him before that, but now I definitely heart Chavez!